Plant information database(s)? Tool idea? Feedback?

In another life (or at least what feels like it, since we've gone through some major transitions since then...), I taught myself to code, learned a few different programming languages, how to build web apps, etc...

And recently I've been diving, more deeply than I had before into a bunch of permaculture concepts I'd only been acquainted with on a surface level before.

As I dig in and try to plan out what we'll be doing on our property here, I find myself asking certain questions which I'm sure are common to pretty much anyone who has gone down this road before me.  

Looking for plants which would go well together in guilds with the plants I already know that I would like to grow.  Trying to match needs for soil types, sun, moisture, etc...  


As I was searching around on this site, Google, etc., it occurred to me that the majority of the information I needed was readily available - but it wasn't, as far as I was/am aware, compiled together into one place where it was easily accessible and searchable.

I haven't come across anybody referencing a site like this in response to any of these questions on Permies. But I can't imagine I would be alone in thinking this seems like it would be a useful tool to have available if I were to try to make it...

So I guess the first question is, am I correct that this doesn't really exist? And does it sound useful?  (Keep reading for further description/explanation.)

The hardest part would be getting the actual data. I remembered hearing studies the US government had done on edible plants a while back, and wondered if the USDA had a similar database of plant information.

I found plants.usda.gov which does have a fair amount of info and for some of the plants it seems to actually have a significant amount of the searchable data I had been thinking of.... but I was surprised to see that they only have the "characteristics search" for a little over 2000 plants.  

For example, if you go under the characteristics search and type "strawberry" and select "common name" from the drop down, only two plants are returned: beach strawberry and strawberry clover.  These are not even really the varieties I would have expected if only 2 plants with the word strawberry were going to be included in their database with characteristics, but that's what it is.


So, while you can apparently search by many of the different characteristics you might imagine wanting to, the database is sorely lacking in that information.

So the next question becomes whether there is some other source or sources to gather this information from, whether through a database pull or by scraping from a website? (With permission.)

Or if much of the information would perhaps need to be largely crowdsourced and crowd-verified once the website was functioning?

I also realize the USDA data probably only covers US plants (mostly?). So if you're aware of a database with this data for international plant information, that would be great.


Another thing that the USDA website is lacking that I would like for this tool to include, by the way, is a way to look for complimentary plants to grow together in a pair or within a guild... Rather than searching for other plants that like sun, slightly acidic soil, etc, to just be able to go to the page for blueberries (example that led me down this train of thought
originally) and from there have an option to search for plants that grow well with them (and even be able to narrow it further than that based on what you're looking for from that plant). And I don't see a way to do anything like that directly through the USDA site even with a more complete database.

And eventually, as people used the tool, they could save their favorite guild matches and the "profile" page for each plant could show popular matches for that plant to give you ideas of what others are doing (maybe even other users in your zone?region? 🤔) without even having to search.


There are quite a few different things you could potentially do with it actually... but like I said,  the biggest hurdle would be getting the actual data about each plant into a useful database.  And so I was just curious if anyone had ideas for where I should go about looking for that data.


This is a fresh idea which has only begun to percolate, and I have not fully committed to actually doing it yet - partially because I am still trying to get a handle on how difficult it would be to fill the database, and also curious how much interest there would be in a tool like that.  But I definitely have to say that the idea has grabbed me...


Thank you for any feedback or answers to any of my questions,  I really appreciate it.  Also any questions you have for me are welcome too.

I learn about this plant information database here on the forum.

I have found this database to be very informative.

Plants for A Future:

https://pfaf.org/user/Default.aspx

Plant Database Search:

https://pfaf.org/user/plantsearch.aspx

There are now several apps that folks are using to ID plants:

Here is one:

https://permies.com/t/215688/PictureThis-Plant-ID-App-Review

I hope this is the kind of information you are seeking.

Thanks Anne!

I'm on my phone rather than a computer right now, so it's hard to do a thorough review, but it looks like Plants For a Future has a lot of similarities (as well as some differences) with what I was envisioning.  It is certainly a LOT closer than anything else I've come across so far.


One shortcoming I see is that it looks like they say they only include plants which can grow in the UK. Which I totally understand - especially given that it sounds like this information isn't as easily accumulated as I'd originally hoped it might be. So if they're having to piece it all together themselves from various sources, it makes sense to focus their energy on the region they care the most about. I care the most about plants that grow where I am too.  Personally, if I'm going to put in the energy to build out a tool like this, I'd also like to at least have a *GOAL* of growing the database to include a much broader range if and when possible.

I'm also not sure what they count as "useful", but they only include plants they deem edible and useful which, again makes sense, but if someone has a different understanding of "usefulness" than them, then plants they could've used get excluded.  But with limited resources, you've gotta draw the line somewhere I guess.


Technically, they say you can buy their database, but even the commercial license doesn't support reusing it in my own app lol. Might be able to reach out and talk to them about how they went about compiling their data though.

Thanks for pointing me in that direction!

I believe that information has changed:

Originally focused on plants suitable for temperate regions, it has now been extended to include many of the more important tropical and sub-tropical edible and useful plants.

https://pfaf.org/user/AboutUs.aspx

Also, their Resource page offers several US Seed Companies and Nurseries:

https://pfaf.org/user/AboutUs.aspx

I have seen a lot of folks on the forum that are happily using their database.

I don't know if this would help or is pertinent, but the GRIN system may offer something...?  I think unfortunately accessing some of the materials may be a bit difficult, but some of the information available may be of use:

https://www.ars-grin.gov/

A quick search with the keyword "Strawberry" returned 500 entries....different crop species will have varying representation in the database I'm sure and the kind of information you seek just may not be available.

In a more perfect world where "big data" becomes more of the norm, I envision a gardening database where one could map optimized plant varieties for their own *home* soil (not just the soils typical of that general region).  In the meantime, encouragement to you for the project and also would recommend finding seeds from other growers in your immediate neighborhood/vicinity which may already be pre-adapted for your soils.  Good luck!

Anne Miller wrote:I believe that information has changed:

Oh interesting! I must have missed that when I was reading through there. I wonder if they plan to expand it farther beyond that as well...

Anne Miller wrote:
I have seen a lot of folks on the forum that are happily using their database.

My assumption there would simply be that there is likely to be a significant crossover between plants which can be grown in the UK (plus apparently "some important tropical and subtropical" plants) and those which can be grown in the US...

But obviously it is entirely possible for my assumptions to be completely wrong! 🤷‍♂️

But I'm glad to learn that this useful tool exists! It may not be fulfilling everything I am imagining, but I'm glad to see they seem to be at least covering a significant portion of the feature set.


I have to admit, I got hit with a significant distraction from checking out their website and tool. I got a call from my daughter's school and was told she'd thrown up so I had to go pick her up and now the poor girl is home with me for the day.

I think the folks making https://permapeople.org/ want to do something like what you're talking about?  They have a plant DB.  I think the idea is to collect information about people's experience growing various plants (and guilds, etc.)

If you are prepared to do a bit of critical thinking, and back up the result with some independent research, I have found that ChatGPT can actually give some useful results. Here is a query I ran through it today.

suggest a permaculture guild to accompany blueberry plants

ChatGPT
A permaculture guild is a group of plants that are chosen to complement and support the growth of a particular plant or crop. In the case of blueberry plants, here are some suggestions for a permaculture guild:

Comfrey: Comfrey is a nutrient accumulator, which means it can draw up nutrients from deep in the soil and make them available to the blueberry plant. Its deep roots also help to aerate the soil.

Dandelion: Dandelion is another nutrient accumulator that can help to improve soil fertility. It also attracts pollinators and its taproot can help to break up compacted soil.

Lupine: Lupine is a nitrogen-fixing plant, which means it can convert atmospheric nitrogen into a form that the blueberry plant can use. It also provides habitat for beneficial insects and improves soil structure.

Yarrow: Yarrow is a dynamic accumulator, which means it can draw up nutrients from the soil and make them available to the blueberry plant. It also attracts predatory insects that can help to control pests.

Chamomile: Chamomile is a low-growing plant that can help to suppress weeds and improve soil structure. It also attracts pollinators and has a calming effect on the surrounding plants.

By planting these plants alongside blueberry bushes, you can create a diverse ecosystem that supports the growth of the blueberries while also improving soil health, attracting pollinators, and providing habitat for beneficial insects.

And another:

suggest a permaculture guild to grow with field beans

ChatGPT
Field beans, also known as broad beans, are a nutritious and versatile legume that can be used in a wide range of dishes. When it comes to permaculture, field beans are a great crop to grow as they fix nitrogen in the soil and can be intercropped with other plants to create a mutually beneficial guild. Here is a permaculture guild that could work well with field beans:

Field Beans: The main crop in this guild, field beans are planted in the center of the guild and allowed to grow up to 3-4 feet tall. They are legumes, which means they have nitrogen-fixing properties, adding nitrogen to the soil for other plants to use.

Comfrey: Comfrey is a deep-rooted herb that mines minerals from deep in the soil and brings them up to the surface. It is a great companion plant for field beans, as it provides them with minerals and helps to build soil fertility. It also has medicinal properties and can be used to make a nutrient-rich compost tea.

Calendula: Calendula is a beautiful flowering herb that attracts pollinators to the garden. It also has antifungal properties and can help to repel pests. Plant it around the edges of the field beans to provide a colorful border and protect the beans from pests.

Borage: Borage is another flowering herb that is great for attracting pollinators to the garden. It is also a good companion plant for field beans, as it helps to repel pests and can improve soil fertility. Plant it around the edges of the guild or intercrop it with the field beans.

Nasturtium: Nasturtium is an edible plant that can be used in salads or as a garnish. It also attracts beneficial insects to the garden and can help to repel pests. Plant it around the edges of the guild or intercrop it with the field beans.

By planting this permaculture guild, you can create a diverse and mutually beneficial ecosystem that will support the growth of your field beans while also providing other benefits such as pest control, soil fertility, and pollination.

That's the thing about GPT et. al., you have to know what they're talking about to know what they're talking about, eh?  Once we connect them to empirical feedback systems they will become more reliable.